This log is automatically generated by an IRC bot from the traffic on the #topicmaps IRC channel on the irc.openprojects.net IRC server. This file has the traffic for 2002-08-28. If you have questions regarding this log, please contact larsga@ontopia.net.
| 10:23:03 | tmbot | tmbot has joined #topicmaps |
| 10:23:38 | larsbot | there. now let's see if Mary can get into the channel |
| 12:19:38 | larsbot | larsbot has quit None ("[x]chat") |
| 13:02:20 | tmbot | tmbot has joined #topicmaps |
| 13:02:27 | larsbot | I figured it was as good a joke as any, so... |
| 13:03:26 | MaryYo | and we have another bot, tmbot, I wonder who that is. |
| 13:03:38 | larsbot | that's a real bot |
| 13:03:49 | larsbot | he does logging, which is why I started him |
| 13:04:06 | larsbot | I hope to get to the point where this channel will be publicly logged |
| 13:04:11 | larsbot | we need more traffic first, though |
| 13:07:26 | MaryYo | I had to put my son to bed. A short break. Oh, I see. I guess you realize that I am new to all of this. |
| 13:07:44 | larsbot | short break is fine |
| 13:07:49 | larsbot | and I do realize you are new :) |
| 13:08:13 | larsbot | we'll be having a meeting with a customer soon, so I may be a little slow to respond |
| 13:10:04 | MaryYo | that's OK, I was just testing this out and I have to really put my kids to bed now. My son Kenji just got up again. I wanted to discuss the report for tomorrow, but this may not be the place. |
| 13:12:36 | larsbot | I think this is a good place, but the time may not be perfect :) |
| 13:12:48 | larsbot | you do as you like; I'm here most of the time when I'm by my computer |
| 13:16:03 | MaryYo | I'll be back a little later. My kids need me now. |
| 13:16:17 | larsbot | ok |
| 13:16:19 | larsbot | see you :) |
| 15:16:03 | MaryYo | MaryYo has quit None (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 15:16:23 | MaryYo | MaryYo has joined #topicmaps |
| 15:16:44 | MaryYo | Hi, I'm back. |
| 15:16:46 | larsbot | hi there |
| 15:16:49 | larsbot | our meeting is over, too |
| 15:17:37 | MaryYo | I realize that you are at work, and I've got to get to sleep too, but I have a few questions. |
| 15:18:59 | MaryYo | About the meeting minutes -- prop-schema -- I did not understand the statement about umbrella PSIs -- we have them in the reference model? |
| 15:19:26 | larsbot | I didn't fully understand, either |
| 15:19:35 | larsbot | but the reference model is more than what's described in the current document |
| 15:19:56 | larsbot | SRN & co have worked on it among themselves, and I guess they have come up with some umbrella PSIs |
| 15:20:00 | larsbot | that's my best guess |
| 15:20:19 | MaryYo | Maybe this can be taken out of the minutes until Steve explains what he means. oo you are fast! |
| 15:20:27 | larsbot | I'm a bot, you know :) |
| 15:20:38 | larsbot | I think we should leave it in |
| 15:20:45 | larsbot | if he wants it taken out he should say so |
| 15:20:57 | larsbot | the idea is that this should be the record of what was said, so that people can look at it and remember |
| 15:21:05 | larsbot | so taking it out might be harmful for him :) |
| 15:21:14 | MaryYo | OK, I think that I will leave this one out. But you know, Komachi-san will ask me!! |
| 15:21:37 | larsbot | I think the answer would be that it's something that's under development and not yet committed to writing |
| 15:21:39 | MaryYo | I see what you mean, this helps. |
| 15:22:37 | MaryYo | The term theme removed is really interesting for us because theme and subject are the same word in Japanese. |
| 15:22:56 | larsbot | same problem in Norwegian :) |
| 15:23:20 | MaryYo | I bet with other languages too. |
| 15:24:15 | MaryYo | In the same section, I hope that we don't continue with "scoping topics" in its place, Topic used in scope is good. |
| 15:24:51 | larsbot | well, there's no defined term, so people can use whichever they prefer |
| 15:25:49 | MaryYo | About merge-prop-srclocs, the source locators in xtm terms would be the ids, right? |
| 15:26:02 | MaryYo | I'm not up to speed with the SAM terms yet |
| 15:26:21 | larsbot | yes. source locators are basically file-url-of-file#xml-id-of-element |
| 15:26:41 | MaryYo | that's what I thought, good |
| 15:26:45 | larsbot | you need the file-url-of-file because the same ID may appear in different files and yet belong to different topics |
| 15:28:32 | MaryYo | I thought we were goin to throw them away when merged |
| 15:29:09 | larsbot | if you do you won't be able to resolve <topicRef>s any more... |
| 15:29:23 | larsbot | when you merge topic maps you throw away the source locators of the topic map items, but not of topics, associations, base names, ... |
| 15:31:06 | MaryYo | You mean the ID of the topicMap element? |
| 15:31:27 | larsbot | the source locator created from that ID, yes |
| 15:31:52 | larsbot | have you tried following the links from the report into the Omnigator? in some cases that leads to background information |
| 15:32:15 | MaryYo | Ok, I got it. It seemed strange to throw away the source locators, So the sam behaviour is the same as the current one. This is not so clear from the prose. |
| 15:32:44 | larsbot | when I say "current behaviour" I mean "behaviour specified by latest SAM draft" |
| 15:32:47 | larsbot | I guess that may not be clear |
| 15:33:23 | MaryYo | Oh, I will follow the links back to the omnigator. I think I missed something. |
| 15:33:53 | larsbot | how much help you get varies, but at least that may simplify some things |
| 15:35:37 | MaryYo | Going back a little merge-same subject ind addr, |
| 15:35:53 | MaryYo | The paper pointing to itself example in the notes |
| 15:36:43 | MaryYo | is this the subject indicating and subject constituting thing --- one uri, I don't understand, |
| 15:36:51 | larsbot | ah, I see |
| 15:37:02 | larsbot | yes, that's exactly what it is |
| 15:37:15 | larsbot | subject indicating resource == obsolete terminology for "subject indicator" |
| 15:37:48 | larsbot | subject constituting resource == obsolete terminology for "subject that is an information resource" |
| 15:37:55 | larsbot | actually, we probably need a new term for the latter |
| 15:37:58 | larsbot | * larsbot makes a note |
| 15:38:23 | larsbot | so, [subject identifiers] contains the URIs of the topic's subject indicators |
| 15:38:40 | larsbot | while [subject address] contains the URI of the topic's subject (if that is an information resource) |
| 15:38:56 | larsbot | if you find the same URI in both properties something strange must be going on |
| 15:39:09 | larsbot | the subject must then be a) the thing described in the resource and b) the resource itself |
| 15:39:16 | larsbot | unless the resource describes itself this makes no sense |
| 15:39:23 | larsbot | but since the resource *can* do that... |
| 15:39:52 | MaryYo | use 1 uri for subject indicating, subject constituting, Nikita mentioned the paper pointing to itself -- if the subject is a "requirements doc" then they would be both wouldn't they? |
| 15:41:17 | larsbot | a requirements document is a resource |
| 15:41:32 | larsbot | so in that case you could do <topic><subjectIdentity><resourceRef ... |
| 15:41:46 | larsbot | that is, use [subject address] to point to the "subject constituting resource" |
| 15:41:57 | larsbot | you wouldn't need a subject indicator |
| 15:42:29 | MaryYo | Ok, that makes sense. I think that this is not clear in the xtm spec and needs to be made very clear |
| 15:42:34 | larsbot | basically, this issue was raised by the observation that that particular situation looked like a bug in the topic map, and the question was, should we make a constraint rule to disallow it |
| 15:42:52 | larsbot | clear in XTM spec: definitely not. I don't think it's very clear anywhere, and we need to clear it up |
| 15:43:01 | MaryYo | It seems that we won't, right? |
| 15:43:10 | larsbot | that's right |
| 15:43:16 | MaryYo | I mean, to disallow it. |
| 15:43:33 | larsbot | because of the "resource describing itself" case we can't disallow it, because in that case the TM would make sense |
| 15:43:48 | MaryYo | Ok, good. |
| 15:45:02 | MaryYo | These are going to be presented to national bodies and do we give our comments on all, or on the xtm syntax change proposal; |
| 15:45:16 | MaryYo | I would guess Komachi-san would like to know this. |
| 15:45:49 | larsbot | it would be good to get comments from the national bodies on: |
| 15:45:52 | larsbot | - the current SAM draft |
| 15:46:00 | larsbot | - the current XTM syntax specification |
| 15:46:06 | larsbot | - the standardization guide |
| 15:46:20 | larsbot | - the meeting report from Montréal (less urgent) |
| 15:46:40 | MaryYo | I'm making a note -- how did you do that. |
| 15:46:55 | larsbot | just write "/me is making a note, too" |
| 15:47:45 | larsbot | used a lot on IRC when people talk about themselves |
| 15:48:30 | MaryYo | why is that? |
| 15:48:56 | larsbot | no very good reason :) |
| 15:48:58 | larsbot | it's just a nice feature |
| 15:49:02 | larsbot | * larsbot likes it, for some reason |
| 15:49:47 | MaryYo | I see, we get some change in color, breaks things up a bit, expresses a little more with color |
| 15:50:13 | larsbot | yeah |
| 15:50:25 | larsbot | you can also get colour and formatting in what you write, but that's not very popular |
| 15:50:42 | larsbot | like 8this |
| 15:50:56 | MaryYo | Ok, how did you do that! |
| 15:51:37 | larsbot | I can tell you how to do it with XChat, but not how to do it with mirc :) |
| 15:51:50 | larsbot | in any case it's not something I recommend doing |
| 15:51:54 | larsbot | it's just visual noise |
| 15:52:21 | MaryYo | * MaryYo no problem, I don't think I need it anyway |
| 15:52:50 | larsbot | there you got it :) |
| 15:53:07 | MaryYo | getting back, how do national bodies report on the items you mentioned. |
| 15:53:17 | MaryYo | Is there a formal way for each |
| 15:53:34 | larsbot | there's a formal procedure for national body comments |
| 15:53:42 | larsbot | I'll show you an example |
| 15:53:56 | MaryYo | The xtm change will come in and we comment, I have seen that. |
| 15:54:20 | larsbot | here's an example: http://www.y12.doe.gov/sgml/sc34/document/0252.htm |
| 15:54:31 | MaryYo | * MaryYo makes a note |
| 15:54:52 | larsbot | basically, you write up your comments and send them to the secretariat, which then compiles a document like this one |
| 15:55:01 | larsbot | Komachi-san knows all of this, I'm sure |
| 15:55:21 | MaryYo | Do it separately for each one, I would guess he will ask me to do this tommorrow. |
| 15:56:29 | larsbot | whether you do it separately or not is not so important, I think |
| 15:56:34 | larsbot | whichever is more convenient for you |
| 15:57:00 | MaryYo | Thanks. This has been really great. I think that we can have great meetings with this |
| 15:57:23 | larsbot | excellent :) |
| 15:57:43 | larsbot | I think so, too |
| 15:57:55 | MaryYo | I recently got W3C member access and I saw that the semantic web group does both at the same time |
| 15:58:09 | larsbot | both IRC and phone? |
| 15:58:16 | MaryYo | They post a concall # plus the IRC |
| 15:58:29 | larsbot | sounds like an excellent idea |
| 15:58:34 | larsbot | since you can then throw URIs around etc |
| 15:58:37 | MaryYo | Yes, I think that this would work for us. This is much easier for me |
| 15:58:45 | larsbot | much easier for me as well :) |
| 15:59:02 | MaryYo | my kids usually wake up when I am on the phone, they want my attention. |
| 15:59:37 | MaryYo | They are used to me pounding on the keyboard so they don't really feel left out if they see me on the phone. |
| 15:59:51 | larsbot | right :-) |
| 16:00:15 | larsbot | I'm sending you the log from this discussion now |
| 16:00:18 | MaryYo | So thanks again and I will go to bed now. I feel better about the meeting tomorrow. Have a good day |
| 16:00:19 | larsbot | just so you can see what it looks like |
| 16:00:32 | larsbot | you're certainly welcome |
| 16:00:35 | MaryYo | Thanks. You can show me how to do that next time. thanks. |
| 16:00:38 | MaryYo | bye. |
| 16:00:44 | larsbot | good night! |
| 16:00:45 | larsbot | bye |
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| 17:21:23 | larsbot | netsplits galore |
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